With the Kramer brothers and their companies like Asher and KBM out of all the hundreds/thousands of notes they've done with many companies. They've never once used these notes to make an investement in any company. Every single one of their notes have either been repaid early in cash or allowed to convert into shares which the Kramer brothers then sold except of course for the ones now in court. So again I don't see how they could be considered anything but a loan. And from what I've found with every one of their notes the Kramers have made a profit well over the 25% maximum allowed in New York on a loan even though the Kramers disquise the profits on the notes on other things besides the interest rates listed on the notes.